Professor Bainbridge...on law, politics, religion, culture & food

Assuming a typical grant award and the hours required for a college student won’t the government be breaking its own minimum wage laws??

You know, Obama keeps trying to create parallels with JFK. He’s going to speak in a stadium; he’s trying to get Germany to agree to a speech by him in front of the Brandenburg Gate.

I have a better parallel. JFK created the Peace Corps, an entirely volunteer program that had the goal of inspiring young people to join a service organization that worked for peace and world development.

Obama wants to mandate service instead of inspire it.

The Nanny State, emergent.

Pass.

"Conscripting young people to do public service is just as much a form of slavery as conscripting them to go and fight in a war. Too many people on the left like one; to many people on the right like the other...”

You actually know people on the right who like the draft? Maybe you were just generalizing for the sake of making a point. I personally prefer an all volunteer military.

Having volunteered for a nationally well-known not-for-profit for over ten years, I can tell you that it would be safe for me to generalize that more volunteers there were right-minded than left. Perhaps that’s why liberals prefer “mandated volunteerism” - it may be the only way to get their followers to participate!

The military ‘draft’ is nothing more than the ‘selective service’ of the militia as established in Article I, Section 8 of the Constitution. Congress implements that power through Title X of the USC which says -

“311. Militia: composition and classes

(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.
(b) The classes of the militia are—
(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and
(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.”

As per 311(b)(2) whether you like or not, you are by definition a member of the federal militia from 17 to 45 as a male. You’re already in. It’s just that you’ve not been called up yet. And it’s constitutionally based.

I find no other obligation of service defined in the Constitution other than that of the militia. The 13th Amendment closes any other option other than a further amendment or creative ‘living’ interpretation of the document.

"Obama needs to make clear that any such program would be voluntary and ensure that it remains so by taking away federal funding from schools that make “public” service compulsory. “

That definitely closes a huge gap. Hopefully if he doesn’t, the opposition will…

The Beastie Boys said it: “you gotta fight for your right to party.”

I perform a socially useful function, by dint of the fact that I am lawfully employed doing something that other people, uncoerced, give me money to do. It’s part of the deal that I turn up on time and produce stuff. Fair enough. That’s my job. But being a citizen is not a job. The government has no rightful say as to how I order my life in any respect other than its direct effect on others, and assuming that by not ‘volunteering’ I am somehow being parasitical on society is essentially fascist (and I’m not just using that as the Argumentum ad Hitleram). When five o’clock on Friday rolls around, I am doing my bit for the greater good by going out and getting hammered. I won’t use the ‘some of my best friends are Jewish’ defence that I do a lot of volunteer work on my own: I don’t. But it’s not up to plaster saints like Barack Obama to guilt me into doing so. By just rolling out of bed on time five days a week, turning up to work, and not breaking any laws, I have fulfilled my side of the bargain. The Self-Righteous Brothers can bugger off.

We will create new opportunities for Americans to serve. And we will direct that service to our most pressing national challenges.

We do not need “new opportunities” to serve because in every community in the US there are already a multitude of ways to do so.  No government direction is necessary either.  Each and every day Americans do volunteer in organized and unorganized ways as the individuals in that community see fit.  Why does Obama not trust us to choose what we volunteer for?

Despite what Goldberg says, I think a draft can be justified in a case of dire national need.  It is inarguably the strongest possible type of expropriation, but it is clearly constitutional for matters of urgent national defence.  I am rather pleased that the US has not had to resort to a draft for the current war - in fact, the very complexity of modern warfare makes masses of short-term draftees rather unsuitable.  I do not know of any officers or NCOs who want to be burdenned with hordes of unwilling 18 year olds.

Or as another messianic leader said, “Arbeit macht frei”.

Posted by Holdfast on 07/09 at 01:48 AM

“Despite what Goldberg says, I think a draft can be justified in a case of dire national need.”

If it is urgent then the president just needs to ask and people will join.

All they asked for with these wars were for us to go shopping…

And this is a check on government. If we don’t agree with the political class, then we don’t join when they ask. On the other hand, there are still many many patriots will join if asked and it is a half way ok cause.

First of all, as someone pointed out above, it’s the right that opposed the draft first, with the far left. Milton Friedman was one of the first to come out against it. It was the moderate left that was supporting it at the end of Vietnam during Johnson’s presidency, and Charlie Rengel who’s trying to bring it back now.

Secondly, Obama is pushing on a string. While there’s a good argument that this is tyrannical, there’s also the point that it’s nonsense. The people who push themselves to volunteer as a reaction to their desire to affect change in the world are also the types that stay up late, studying, to change themselves. Forcing volunteerism in order to bring up grades is like turning a blowtorch on a broken car because engines get hot when they work. How do they find these people to run for president in that party...?

The U.S. government has a “voluntary” program for contributing money to non-profit organizations. 

In boot camp, participation in this “voluntary” program is _required_, and the performance of a company commander is partly evaluated on whether he has 100% participation from his men. The company flag gets a badge for 100% participation, and you can rest assured that every company has a badge.

When I sought to opt out, my company commander brought me to the base commander, who let me know that I would be held back in boot camp if I did not participate (the ultimate penalty besides expulsion from the service in boot camp.) I immediately decided to sign away a portion of my paltry E-1 salary to a “non-profit”.

My father had the same sort of experience involving U.S. Savings Bonds when he worked for the Atomic Energy Commission during the Johnson administration—it was made clear to him that from the top down the government wanted all government employees to buy the U.S. governments rotten investment, and folks were being evaluated on their participation all the way up the management ladder.

Elite “intellectuals” with zero real world experience who gas about this stuff are oblivious to the obvious problems involving the “voluntary” then a bureaucratic organization is involved.

Don, the 13th amendment, which is part of the Constitution, prohibits slavery.  You cited a statute, which if it conflicts with the actual constitution, is null and void.  There is no obligation to serve in the constitution.

Tom’s dead to rights.

The other problem with much of this is that one could argue that a draft in the military might be theoretically necessary because we cannot raise a large enough army in time otherwise to counter an existential threat.

Unlike retirement or health care, private armies are unworkable and undesirable. I can take care of my retirement. I can take care of my health care. If left alone, I can arrange for my child’s education. But I cannot defend the country on my own.

So it’s not “the right’s” cause. It’s the country’s cause. Both left and right benefit from a military with enough bodies to defend the nation.

(And, yes, I get that a volunteer army is preferable. But, that’s in small-scale war. In a large scale war, would it be enough?)

But have no doubt - the programs that Obama and his ilk are likely to advance through compulsory service will be those that help advance the left in particular. The purpose is to use taxpayer funds to indenture children to advance leftist causes.

The only question that remains is whether Obama will indeed provide them with 40 acres and a mule.

What you meanies fail to realize is that Ob_ma, may his name be praised, MEANS WELL - so how dare you quible over details like constitutionality or this “freedom” you have fetishized. Ob_ma stands for CHANGE!  so be prepared for the old order (partying, too many choices, etc.) to be swept away by the tide of destiny.  Onward Companeros! Workers Unite with our Internationalist Fraternal Brothers in the One True Party! .....Um, uh.  I mean “Yes we can.” Thank you.

I know you are trying to be fair, but it is the left that is calling for the draft, not the right. Charles Rangel and his buddies pushed the idea, so your little quip does not work.

>Unlike Jonah, I don’t have a problem with conditioning college aid on public service. If you’re a poor kid who can’t afford to go to college on your own and you want the Army to pay your way through college, you have to join ROTC and commit to serve when you graduate. Is that servitude in Jonah’s book?<

The operative word in Jonah’s book is “involuntary.” A “poor kid,” policy and argument are always determined by this mythical kid, does what he has to do (ROTC? Do colleges allow that any more?), just as we all do when we go to work.  But we do what is necessary for ourselves, not for the benefit of the state.  This is the part that always gets left out of the pro-liberal arguments.  They wish to force people to benefit the state.  Obama wants to force people to do his bidding and sees that it is good.

Notice the Messiah’s kids won’t have to do any of this since they go to private schools.  I wonder if he’ll allow rich kids to buy their way out, or if that will only apply to the kids of rich politicians?

I think the difference here, between Obama and JFK, who he is clearly using as inspiration, is just that, inspiration. It is an emotion, and JFK was better at it than Obama seems to be.

the real issue is this: Obama is clueless of what the daily life and schedules of middle, high school and college students is like. He seems to think that these students just go to class six hours per day and then hang out in the ‘hood, doing nothing. So they must have all this extra time that they can use for “public service,” right?

Fact is, this fall my high-school daughter will be up at 6 a.m. to leave before 7 for class. She will finish classes at 2:30 p.m. and then will have athletic practices, both semesters, to between 4:30-5:00. Then home, shower, dinner and homework until 9 p.m. and many nights later than that. Weekends? Soccer games and track and field matches for most of the school year, and for non-game weekends, I want her to have a day off. She will have earned it.

My sons are both in college full time. My eldest was honorably discharged from the Marine Corps, with Iraq service. I guess his public service there wasn’t the right kind so he needs to do the right kind now. My second son is an athletic scholarship student in a Div. 1 NCAA, USNews top-30 university. His course load this coming semester is calculus, physics, chemistry and a medical-statistics course. So he has all kinds of spare time for Obama’s indentured servanthood.

I might also point out that my children, along millions of their peers, perform many different kinds of public service through existing school clubs and their church. But I guess that doesn’t count since those services don’t rest under the meaty federal thumb. Private-sector service doesn’t count for Obama.

No matter. In Obamaland, all is well when the feds regulate ever more of our private lives.

Mr. Sensing is correct, and to build on his point...the “Free State” (a-HA-ha-ha) of Maryland imposed mandatory service requirements on high school students, as a precondition for graduation, some years back.  Both of my children were subjects.  The wife and I fretted over it some, and I thought briefly about making a Principled Stand by refusing to sign the kids up for things, and drive them all over...but it quickly became clear that the thing was just a typical bureaucratic mess.  Events and signatures were not validated to any extent, and they even started giving credit hours for things like showing up for class.  Of course it took people, ever more people, to administer this program, which I think will be the ultimate effect of Barry O’s program should it be enacted.

It’s just one more thing to point to if you wanna get cynical about modern government in the U S of A.  Noble intentions, laughable results.  Nothing to see here, just move on…

The connection between the right and the draft is so solidly made in popular mythology that the dems could call for a draft--see Rangel--prior to the last presidential election absolutely certain that it would be blamed on the republicans.  It would terrify people into voting for Kerry.
It didn’t turn the tide, but I knew folks who had to be shown half a dozen news reports before they’d believe it wasn’t Bush.

Tom,
Don actually references the militia clause of the US constitution, and then references the enabling statute.

You can argue that the thirteenth amendment overturned the militia clause, but its unlikely to get you anywhere. The Supreme Court has consistently held that the 13th amendment did not apply to things like jury duty and mililtary conscription. During the Vietnam war, the court declared the power of the government to draft to be “beyond question.” (United States v. O’Brien, 391 U.S. 367, 377 (1968) - Also see Selective Draft Law Cases, 245 U.S. 366 (1918), and United States v. Holmes, 387 F.2d 781, 784 (7th Cir. 1968), cert. denied 391 U.S. 956.)

So, Don is correct that the draft is constitutional under the 13th amemdment. I believe that its a terrible idea, for both practical and moral reasons, but its not unconstitutional.

I agree that the draft is wrong, and that the 13th Amendment should have abolished such. To a previous commenter: the 13th Amendment supersedes Article I section 8 of the U. S. Constitution. In fact, the ‘involuntary servitude’ section of the 13th Amendment was specifically put into the Amendment to prohibit a military draft, which was extremely unpopular in many northern states.

However, the U.S. Supreme Court has held a draft to be constitutional, in yet another of its bizarre cases.

"Unlike Jonah, I don’t have a problem with conditioning college aid on public service. If you’re a poor kid who can’t afford to go to college on your own and you want the Army to pay your way through college, you have to join ROTC and commit to serve when you graduate. Is that servitude in Jonah’s book?”

Ummmm no because you make the concious decision that serving in the ROTC and the military is worth the opportunity to go to school.  Obama is stating that you will perform community service regardless of you personal decision.  That is serfdom

Like the poster above, I also live in an area where service hours are required for HS graduation—I’m not sure if its a state or local requirement.  However I know that there has been some discussion of making it mandatory at some of the state universities also.  I’ve also heard that some of the local organizations that provide the service opportunities aren’t too thrilled either as most of the kids aren’t particularly motivated and many require more oversight than the service they provide.

And I have one other question—my workplace allows time off for community service—but time off for service at a church or religious org isn’t allowed.  How will government “encouraged” service handle that?

After perusing _Butler vs. Perry_, which is cited as a significant case that removed conscription from the scope of the 13th Amendment, it smacks of the sort of statist Liberal Fascism that Jonah Goldberg wrote about.  It was 1916, and there are references to the “states’ undoubted power”, and this chestnut:

“There is no merit in the claim that a man’s labor is property, the taking of which without compensation by the state for building and maintenance of public roads violates the due process clause of the 14th Amendment.”

I can’t imagine such a thing coming from a strict constructionist or any modern moderate, and while I don’t think we’ll see conscription challenged anytime soon, if we did I think this is a bit of precedent that would be overturned…

One too many “what what"s in that last sentence.

Well, let’s back up now. Goldberg conveniently truncates Obama’s speech. The Rocky Mountain News printed the entire text of the speech. Here is the unabridged section in which he talks about the issue before us:

“So when I’m President, I will set a goal for all American middle and high school students to perform 50 hours of service a year, and for all college students to perform 100 hours of service a year. This means that by the time you graduate college, you’ll have done 17 weeks of service.

“We’ll reach this goal in several ways. At the middle and high school level, we’ll make federal assistance conditional on school districts developing service programs, and give schools resources to offer new service opportunities. At the community level, we’ll develop public-private partnerships so students can serve more outside the classroom.

“For college students, I have proposed an annual American Opportunity Tax Credit of $4,000. To receive this credit, we’ll require 100 hours of public service. You invest in America, and America invests in you - that’s how we’re going to make sure that college is affordable for every single American, while preparing our nation to compete in the 21st century.”

Now this proposal is very sparse on details but on the face of it does not seem to make the service compulsory. In fact, as stated, the college service is really a fee for service program, at $40 per hour at that!

Nor - again, on the face of it - is there any compulsion about the middle and high school kids’ service; the speech says that schools will have to develop service programs, not that students will have to enroll in them (but really, how long do you think that will last?).

My concern here, though, is that this is just the “camel’s nose under the tent.” When the rst of the camel comes in, we’ll be very sorry we didn’t whack the nose when it appeared.

Umm, Israel has a universal military draft. Those who do not serve have been called “Sarbanim” (סרבנים) in Hebrew which is sometimes translated into the word “refuseniks”.

In America, we call them “Cheneys.”

Does Mr. Goldberg assert that Israel, the Jewish state, has chosen to enslave its own young people at the age of 18?

And is not Israel the beacon of democracy in the Middle East?

Service, servile, serf--get the picture?

If being forced to labor for someone else’s benefit isn’t involuntary servitude, the concept of “involuntary servitude” has no meaning, or maybe Webster’s needs to revise its definintions of both “involuntary” and “servitude.”

Of course Obama has always struck me as someone who, reading Hayek’s ROAD TO SERFDOM, thinks, “Hey, this is great! We should do this!” Especially since he seems to be a pusher of that trifecta of superstition, the Social Gospel.

No Child Left Alone

Israel’s draft is not universal at all. Arab Israelies are not drafted, although they may volunteer. In fact, apart from Jewish Israelis, only Druze Israelis are drafted.

A final observation: under Obama’s plan, we may rightly fear that American students will be

reduced to a functional unit - to an extension of the collective form of labor. It [is] this extension of the collective form of labor that [makes] “demands of personal qualities such as team spirit, comradely mutual assistance, good organization and discipline, and the ability to put the interests of the whole collective above one’s own.” [Students’ views will be] carefully prescribed from above, and any idndividual manifestations of a political or moral character [will be] simply not tolerated. ...

The glorification of [public service] labor and praises of its redemptive value [can]not conceal [how] the [students] and their lifestyle ... stood in sharp contrast to the high social staus of the [political] elite, who somehow managed to secure considerable privileges in representing the “best” interests of the [students themselves].

Link.

In light of the current state of public education, those community hours proposed by Obama might be better spent learning to read, write, and do math.

I’ll take the arguments for compulsory national service seriously as soon as it is applied to, say, all retirees as a condition for Medicare eligibility or Social Security checks. Picking on kids and college students is not a noble purpose.

To advance in Boy Scouting requires participation in service projects that do not aid the Scouts.  For Eagle, a Scout must organize a service project that requires others to help.

I’ll bet that any mandated program would disallow the evil Boy Scouts from counting the hours they already put in doing community service.

And, BTW, all of us adult volunteers are just that, volunteers.

As an entrepreneur, in addition to providing a low cost internet based alternative to college and high school training, I’m looking forward to beating the crap out of my bricks and mortar competition by waiving these absurd requirements.  Along with the unions, this is going to make it so easy.  I can’t wait.

If you are going to ding Goldberg for selective quotation, then why not point to Obama’s whole speech:

http://bulletin.aarp.org/states/il/articles/obama_outlines_plan_for_national_service.html

Check out this part:

“We cannot continue to rely only on our military in order to achieve the national security objectives that we’ve set,” he said Wednesday. “We’ve got to have a civilian national security force that’s just as powerful, just as strong, just as well funded.”

So he wants some “volunteer” youth brigade to serve the security of the Nation.  Perhaps we should call them the Young Pioneers?

Israel’s draft is not universal at all. Arab Israelies are not drafted, although they may volunteer. In fact, apart from Jewish Israelis, only Druze Israelis are drafted.
Posted by Donald Sensing

Donald,

So are you and Mr. Goldberg asserting that Israel has enslaved and continues to enslave its Jewish residents by mandating their military service at age 18?

Conversely, if a Jewish resident of Israel refuses to perform mandatory military service, is he/she is a traitor to the Jewish State or merely another enterprising young Dick Cheney?

A $4000 tax credit, for 100 hours of work?  For college students who likely don’t make enough money in a year to even both filing taxes, and if they do, they get most of the tax money back?

When I was in college, I took classes full time and worked full time, I would have been hard pressed to find 100 free hours to volunteer with after class, work, homework, internships, and the business of living was taken care of.

If the .gov wants me to volunteer for 100 hours, they’d need to double my federal grant money.

So are you and Mr. Goldberg asserting that Israel has enslaved and continues to enslave its Jewish residents by mandating their military service at age 18?

Where in the Israeli constitution does it guarantee prohibition of involuntary servitude?  Or is it in an amendment to their constitution?

Oh wait..  Israel is a different country?  Who knew?!?!?!

Those who are trying to desperately rationalize that the 13th Amendment supersedes the militia clause Article I, Section 8, ignore that in the original context slaves and indians were excluded from militia service. Only free men were entrusted with the duty. Today, as free men, they too are members of the militia. The only exemption is the one that the culture has extended to the females of the society, who achieved ‘equitable’ status but not ‘equitable’ responsibility.

Your best argument against the draft is not the 13th Amendment, but the 14th Amendment and ‘equal before the law’ context. However, the performance of many of the ‘ladies’ in the current events may only mean an extension of responsibility to that exempted population.

Dr. Ken,

Is Israel not a democracy or, as Mr. Goldberg and his fellow members of the Neoconservative Likud movement have long maintained, the “lone democracy in the Middle East”?

Further, is democracy now not the reason being deployed by the White House and those in the Neoconservative Likud movement for our military excursion into Iraq?

Or do the rules of logical debate somehow not apply to Mr. Goldberg and his fellow members of the Neoconservative Likud movement of which one may ascertain you are a loyal member?

Democracy is democracy.

Slavery is slavery.

Logic is logic.

While the last thing I want is more Federal Government intervention in local schools I would think that Obama would focus more on fixing the education problem—not finding ways to create additional requirments for students.  And can Harvard ask for its degree back or force Obama to re-take a logic class—“Study after study shows that students who serve do better in school, are more likely to go to college, and more likely to maintain that service as adults.”

Re: whether the program Obama is talking about is voluntary, he’s offering $40 an hour in tax credits (in a $4000/100hr lump) for college, and it sure as heck sounds like he’s mandating a program, not participation in it. “Setting a goal” sounds a bit suspicious, and I’m not quite sure I like the sound of it. But I’d need something a lot more solid before I’d assume the worst. Lots of people have lots of stupid goals.

The civilian national security corps will not be covered by the Posse Comitatus Act.
Think about that.
A quarter of a million snitches with the power of an FBI agent.

Please. We already have national enslavement, and its mentioned extensively through the post and comments. Its compulsive, enslaved education. Our children are enslaved until almost their 20’s. If they aren’t enslaved publicly, its mandated that they do enforced learning privately. And if you don’t think they are enslaved, take a poll of high schoolers, and see how many want to be in school on any given day.

The argument against national service has no moral force, in light of compulsory education.

Assuming a typical grant award and the hours required for a college student won’t the government be breaking its own minimum wage laws??

If the .gov wants me to volunteer for 100 hours, they’d need to double my federal grant money.

Whatever the merits of Obama’s case, the comments he’s eliciting indicate to me that our schools could be doing a much better job with teaching word problems in math class, or perhaps basic personal economic reasoning.

Whatever the merits of Obama’s case, the comments he’s eliciting indicate to me that our schools could be doing a much better job with teaching word problems in math class, or perhaps basic personal economic reasoning.

Not so much.  Federal Education grants are usually only a couple of hundred dollars, maybe a thousand unless you are really hard up, but far below the $4000 tax credit level.  I think the largest Pell Grant I ever got was $500 for a year.  I’m sorry, but 100 hours of work paying me $10/hour is worth more, even after taxes, than 100 volunteer hours at $5/hr.

I think my economic reasoning is just fine, thank you.